Curse

Vaga · Feb 18, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

The main thing that's been suggested here is getting rid of at the very least daily AT's which are pretty dumb. Whilst the AT mechanic isn't perfect, it's good enough to use for when they're actually giving away actual prizes which is what it should be limited to.

Ladder play and tournament play are also completely different in guild wars, so it would be nice if they could bring the ladder back to mean something whether it be qualifying for the monthly or even just having seasons with some in game prizes based on ladder rank (wc3 for example has in game rewards for their ladder, but automated tourneys you can just join whenever they run for real world prizes).

Also there's no way you can say assassins and ritualists are completely broken but paragons can be fixed with a few tweaks.

Get off this guys nuts everything Mitch and Jr have said has been said before as well, he was just consolidating stuff so it's easy for someone like Andrew to read and explain to the devs.

pah01 · Feb 18, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

They aren't as fundamentally flawed as Sins and Rits, the mechanics are largely fine, just the numbers are off.

I have serious issues with the concept of the Avatar particularly as Riotgear put it - the avatar of [email protected] Thats something as bad for the game as teleporting is. Not as bad as Sins(because teleporting isnt the only retarded thing sins have to offer) perhaps but the idea of the avatar is as fundamentally flawed as anything the rit has to offer.

Paragons are not as bad as they were to be fair but the idea that their unremovable chants, shouts etc which provide partywide buffs is just asking for templates that are broken. I will however allow that they are the least degenerate of the new classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

As far as your post is concerned, I don't see anything particulary wrong with (M)ATs, the system is far from perfect, but with the fact that another GWWC wasn't gonna happen in mind, I don't think it's all that bad.

Well lets see, all VOD problems today are caused by the AT's indirectly. This is a time constraint issue for tournaments affecting the actual format. Without AT's arenanet would not have put so much time into buttraping the GVG endgame.

Seriously tho, do you really think that quarterly seasons with older format gvg (30 mins VOD, 35 min lord walkout) where the seasons follow the style of the GWFC qaulifying seasons would be worse than the current AT situation?

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The AT times could (=should) of course be optimized and the map rotations are kind of dumb, but fundamentally I don't see anything wrong with it.

One reason why you continue to play I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I don't think anyone would argue against balance changes happening too slowly and too infrequently, but that's hardly anything new or worth mentioning AGAIN.

Its not infrequent skill-balance that was my issue. It is the willingness of Anet to leave absolutely broken stuff in the same state for months that I mentioned.

Then again some of your skill balances in the other thread were mentioned AGAIN many times so why didn't you leave the obvious ones out.

Also I do have some HOPE.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

About the whole VoD situation, I have no idea why all those changes had to be made in the first place, NPCs balling in AoE was a problem, adress NPC AI and pathing, don't make NPCs even more important by adding more and making them do insane damage.

I described the issues with VoD (in my eyes) in my thread, JR adressed fundamental flaws of sins and rits in his.

After Kaon made his thread, and the same issues being brought up in many other threads about updates etc.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I don't really understand where you were planning to go with this thread..

It was intended to be a general post. I wasn't going to repeat your skill balance suggestions or go into detail drawing on JR's post or Ensigns much better one from a while back because that would be as retarded as JR is.

Joe

JR · Feb 18, 2008, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Retard. If competitive GVG was based around short ladder seasons finishing up with playoffs one would assume the ELO rating would go back to where it was, with a K value of 30. Perhaps I assume too much of your intelligence.

Even back in the day it was hard for decent guilds to get much more than +1 or +2 on ladder. But you wouldn't know that, would you.

newbie_of_doom · Feb 18, 2008, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I am not a fan of the current AT system, the fact that you can forfeit a game without rating penalty is being exploited.

It would be lame if you play 3/5 and have to go and lose rating for forfeiting. And I kinda like the forfeit on the first match we usually get, cause Im always late anyway

Vaga · Feb 18, 2008, 09:15 AM // 09:15

The main problem with the AT system is just the set maps (some people like them, mostly promotes build wars though) and the scheduling problems. Ladder play is completely different and more fun for some but it's hard to really have anything hinge off it since being good on ladder doesn't = being good at tournament. I agree that there should be some reward for playing on the ladder, but there's no point having the top 32 qualify for a tournament or something.

The current tournament system is decent, it just needs fine tuning. Most competitive games don't have events where everyone in the game can sign up either, if GW only invited the top 10 or so guilds to play vod could be longer since the AT wouldn't be like 5 hours of good teams beating noobs before they play other good teams.

JR · Feb 18, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Apart from guesting, JR doesn't even have experience with this AT system since he's not in a guild. I'm not sure how you can comment as to whether it's better than the old ladder system or not.

I have played the last two weekend AT's with [apr], and have guested with various guilds for many others. Even back in MH I was around for the first lot of ATs.

I'm not in a guild right now, no, but don't make assumptions about my experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

It was intended to be a general post. I wasn't going to repeat your skill balance suggestions or go into detail drawing on JR's post or Ensigns much better one from a while back because that would be as retarded as JR is.

Your ability to resort to nothing but insults says a lot more than I could about this thread. It seems like you just wanted to jump on the wall of text bandwagon, and didn't actually put much thought into what you wanted to say.

It is simply a very general post about mostly quite old and obvious problems, from someone clearly lacking the experience to provide decent alternatives or solutions. If you actually had the knowledge to back up your points when argued against then I would feel you had the justification to have posted in the first place. Sadly, as you have proven, you don't.

erk · Feb 18, 2008, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

It would be lame if you play 3/5 and have to go and lose rating for forfeiting. And I kinda like the forfeit on the first match we usually get, cause Im always late anyway

I think a forfeit should cost you 1 rating point, that's all. If you win you usually get more than enough points to cover a forfeit later if you have to, if you don't win the rating loss from a forfeit is the least of your worries!

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 18, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I have serious issues with the concept of the Avatar particularly as Riotgear put it - the avatar of [email protected] Thats something as bad for the game as teleporting is. Not as bad as Sins(because teleporting isnt the only retarded thing sins have to offer) perhaps but the idea of the avatar is as fundamentally flawed as anything the rit has to offer.

I don't think Avatars are fundamentally flawed, with some tweaks they could be interesting mechanics.

Quote:

Paragons are not as bad as they were to be fair but the idea that their unremovable chants, shouts etc which provide partywide buffs is just asking for templates that are broken. I will however allow that they are the least degenerate of the new classes.

I don't think chants are that problematic (as they at least have a cast time) but echos and shouts are a lot harder to deal with, reapplying echos are pretty stupid and mending refrain is still broken, but again it's nowhere near as fundamentally flawed as sins and rits and paragon actually have potential to be a decent support midliner, even when properly balanced.

Quote:

Well lets see, all VOD problems today are caused by the AT's indirectly. This is a time constraint issue for tournaments affecting the actual format. Without AT's arenanet would not have put so much time into buttraping the GVG endgame.

Arguably, people have always been complaining about others turtling and dragging matches to VoD, I'm not convinced the changes to VoD were entirely to accomodate ATs.

Quote:

Seriously tho, do you really think that quarterly seasons with older format gvg (30 mins VOD, 35 min lord walkout) where the seasons follow the style of the GWFC qaulifying seasons would be worse than the current AT situation?

Depends on how the tournaments would be set up.

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One reason why you continue to play I suppose.

Why do you continue to post on these forums despite not playing anymore then?

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Its not infrequent skill-balance that was my issue. It is the willingness of Anet to leave absolutely broken stuff in the same state for months that I mentioned.

Absolutely broken stuff like SoM/40% enchant axes were actually dealt with rather quickly other then those there aren't really any imbalances that require immediate fixing, the problem with Anet's balances imo is that it's usually too little, too late. And they change mechanics in a patch ending up making stuff worse and needing several patches to 'patch' up their mistakes.

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Then again some of your skill balances in the other thread were mentioned AGAIN many times so why didn't you leave the obvious ones out.

I didn't blindly whine about skill balances happening to infrequently and not quickly enough like you did, I actually provided insight on what I think the current issues were and how I think they could be solved or at the very least improved.

Looking at the last update I can only conclude that Izzy actually listened to me and took some of my advice in consideration when making changes (sadly the biggest problems, reliance on NPCs and too many NPCs period have largely been ignored).

Quote:

It was intended to be a general post. I wasn't going to repeat your skill balance suggestions or go into detail drawing on JR's post or Ensigns much better one from a while back because that would be as retarded as JR is.

Comes off more like a cry for nostalgia to me tbh..

Riotgear · Feb 18, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I don't think chants are that problematic (as they at least have a cast time) but echos and shouts are a lot harder to deal with, reapplying echos are pretty stupid and mending refrain is still broken, but again it's nowhere near as fundamentally flawed as sins and rits and paragon actually have potential to be a decent support midliner, even when properly balanced.

The problem with Paragons in general is that they do a lot both offensively and defensively, and there isn't really any practical way of shutting them down.

The idea of a midliner that spews out a hefty amount of damage and provides great support on top of it is broken. The idea of unremovable teamwide buffs with almost no practical counters is similarly broken. The idea of unremovable buffs that last forever is really, really broken.

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Why do you continue to post on these forums despite not playing anymore then?

Some people are hoping the game can still be salvaged, or at least, made as not-shitty as possible before GW2.

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Absolutely broken stuff like SoM/40% enchant axes were actually dealt with rather quickly other then those there aren't really any imbalances that require immediate fixing

I think I'm more with Ensign in that A.net's biggest flaw seems to be recognizing when they've implemented a bad idea. Most balance problems in recent memory have come from poorly-thought-out buffs (usually of poorly-designed abilities), and problems introduced with new chapters have been very slow to resolve.

Quote:

the problem with Anet's balances imo is that it's usually too little, too late.

The problem with A.net's balances is they either nerf around the problem instead of addressing it directly or nerf an aspect of something that barely matters, and their buffs are completely random.

An overarching problem is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of actual vision guiding the balance changes (and what vision is there makes little sense, like their vision of people making bars with 4+ signets on them), and what vision there is, they don't seem to know how to actually accomplish.

JR · Feb 18, 2008, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The idea of a midliner that spews out a hefty amount of damage and provides great support on top of it is broken. The idea of unremovable teamwide buffs with almost no practical counters is similarly broken. The idea of unremovable buffs that last forever is really, really broken.

In theory, yes, I agree with you. In practice they just aren't that bad (barring a few skills that do need toning down).

pah01 · Feb 19, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Even back in the day it was hard for decent guilds to get much more than +1 or +2 on ladder. But you wouldn't know that, would you.

Stop bullshitting.

I'v been around the block. It doesn't look that hard. The number one guild at the time got a +2 just twice in 16 matches. It may have been towards the end of a season where the last pride were at something ridiculous like 1900 rating which they only reached in the last week that this is true.

Also don't try and claim to being core in MH at the time of this screenshot either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Your ability to resort to nothing but insults says a lot more than I could about this thread. It seems like you just wanted to jump on the wall of text bandwagon, and didn't actually put much thought into what you wanted to say.

I completely agree.
It was me who said this in post 3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

This is like Mitch's thread without the accuracy. I'm not sure why you bothered.

This is obviously not insulting. I also must say that my entire OP was devoted to "resorting to insults".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The idea of a midliner that spews out a hefty amount of damage and provides great support on top of it is broken. The idea of unremovable teamwide buffs with almost no practical counters is similarly broken. The idea of unremovable buffs that last forever is really, really broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

In theory, yes, I agree with you. In practice they just aren't that bad (barring a few skills that do need toning down).

I guarantee that when those problem skills are toned down something else broken will be found to need toning down until the paragon will be unplayable. With the four new classes and the Necro something has to be broken to provide a good reason to play it.

Anyway given that JR hasn't tried to argue with anything substantial I will now see what I can do to counter Mitches arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I don't think Avatars are fundamentally flawed, with some tweaks they could be interesting mechanics.

I am going to use the fact that you consider the use of blind (of course cripple is too) in particular to be a form of active defence to protect from melee. My view is having an avatar of immunity from conditions is therefore bad for the game. Any deft tweaks will have to remove that immunity. Then they will not get played anyway lol. Dervishes and avatar skills suffer from the problem of being broken or unplayable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I don't think chants are that problematic (as they at least have a cast time) but echos and shouts are a lot harder to deal with, reapplying echos are pretty stupid and mending refrain is still broken, but again it's nowhere near as fundamentally flawed as sins and rits and paragon actually have potential to be a decent support midliner, even when properly balanced.

So what we do is tone down the DPS of the paragon, remove the "unremovableness" of the echos(including the permanent IAS), Tone down the power of shouts as they are instant cast, then we solve the leadership energy problem.
We redesign the class almost completely, then they become a good support midline class. Or maybe they don't get played at all because you don't want a paragon because they no longer have broken skills to give you reasons to run them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Arguably, people have always been complaining about others turtling and dragging matches to VoD, I'm not convinced the changes to VoD were entirely to accomodate ATs.

The changes to VOD in particular the timing of it in particular has everything to do with the time factor of matches being the limiting factor of VOD.

You cannot have a 40 minute epic match in an AT due to fact that thereis a next round coming.

Don't kid yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Seriously tho, do you really think that quarterly seasons with older format gvg (30 mins VOD, 35 min lord walkout) where the seasons follow the style of the GWFC qaulifying seasons would be worse than the current AT situation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Depends on how the tournaments would be set up.

Say that they are almost carbon copies of the GWFC seasons where the only difference is that I would like to have two playoff weekends to have more teams involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Its not infrequent skill-balance that was my issue. It is the willingness of Anet to leave absolutely broken stuff in the same state for months that I mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Absolutely broken stuff like SoM/40% enchant axes were actually dealt with rather quickly other then those there aren't really any imbalances that require immediate fixing, the problem with Anet's balances imo is that it's usually too little, too late. And they change mechanics in a patch ending up making stuff worse and needing several patches to 'patch' up their mistakes.

Signet of Midnight is a bug and 40% enchant axes were not intended by the developers. This is not the stuff I am referring to.

Imbalances that require fixing rather fast? Lets start with

Avatar of Grenth
Energizing finale
Recall

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Then again some of your skill balances in the other thread were mentioned AGAIN many times so why didn't you leave the obvious ones out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I didn't blindly whine about skill balances happening to infrequently and not quickly enough like you did, I actually provided insight on what I think the current issues were and how I think they could be solved or at the very least improved.

I didn't blindly whine. I specifically listed things that could be done to improve the format of competitive GVG to fix what needs to be fixed outside of specific skill balance suggestions. But then when one reads the thread, specifically reading what ensign has said it doesn't seem that all of your suggestions were as good as you thought either.

Having said all that, I think that your OP was pretty good and I would pick your skill balance over anything that Izzy put out any day.

However at least you tried to post something substantial here (minus the actual suggestions of what such tweaks to the avatars might be) unlike JR who has blindly whined and insulted.

Joe

øln · Feb 19, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I am going to use the fact that you consider the use of blind (of course cripple is too) in particular to be a form of active defence to protect from melee. My view is having an avatar of immunity from conditions is therefore bad for the game. Any deft tweaks will have to remove that immunity. Then they will not get played anyway lol. Dervishes and avatar skills suffer from the problem of being broken or unplayable.

Have you played the game lately?
The use Mel dervs are decreasing, and it's not like everyone runs bsurges either. People run either Balth dervs or Grenth dervs. And they are not stupidly broken in any way, they can pump out a lot of damage in a spike, but lack the versitility to do much else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

So what we do is tone down the DPS of the paragon, remove the "unremovableness" of the echos(including the permanent IAS), Tone down the power of shouts as they are instant cast, then we solve the leadership energy problem.
We redesign the class almost completely, then they become a good support midline class. Or maybe they don't get played at all because you don't want a paragon because they no longer have broken skills to give you reasons to run them.

Again, when it comes to gvg, paragons are immobile and in this split meta, it has made people run more versatile characters in their place. (not counting paraspike, although it's not a huge problem, since it's basicly being used as an extreme counter to splitbuilds.) When it comes to HA, as mentioned make haste needs fixing, but otherwise paras are no big problem in the current meta. PvEers have also been crying for ages cause of all the nerfs to the paragon class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Imbalances that require fixing rather fast? Lets start with

Avatar of Grenth
Energizing finale
Recall

Energizing finale got fixed a year ago.
Recall also got fixed quite some time ago, although AoD could use a similar nerf.
Grenth just got changed, might be a little powerful, but it's far from the most itching issue.

Aside from this.
I also support removing ViO, as the game is now, it could as well be called npc wars.
A reduction of npc's would also help.

JR · Feb 19, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

SINSPLIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ego · Feb 19, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

I just have to ask you, why do you write all this stuff about the game, if you don't even play it anymore?

Quote:

Originally Posted by øln

Recall also got fixed quite some time ago, although AoD could use a similar nerf.
Grenth just got changed, might be a little powerful, but it's far from the most itching issue.

Aside from this.
I also support removing ViO, as the game is now, it could as well be called npc wars.

AoD is tricky, cause it's just really stupid on some maps. It definately needs some sort of drawback.

Grenth's is pretty easy to kill seeing as it's still only 70 armor. Also, SB stops it quite easily. It can also not make use of the Grenth's Aura seeing as that kinda ruins it's own power.

I think we all agree ViO needs to go alrdy aswell, and it's been said a million times.

Captain Robo · Feb 19, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

This thread is an embarrassment. All of the few valid points of discussion here are completely overshadowed by this retarded flame war. If you guys want to get in a dick waving contest, Riverside is ^^^ That way.

tigros · Feb 19, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

This thread is an embarrassment. All of the few valid points of discussion here are completely overshadowed by this retarded flame war. If you guys want to get in a dick waving contest, Riverside is ^^^ That way.

So true Robo... but you have to admit that pah01 wiped the floor with JR in this one... and JR's only "coherent" response was...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

SINSPLIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes, although these things are nasty, there is a need for some people to be put in their proper places...

JR · Feb 19, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

So true Robo... but you have to admit that pah01 wiped the floor with JR in this one... and JR's only "coherent" response was...

Or I simply got tired of ad hominem arguements from someone who clearly lacks the experience or understanding to be worth my time.

pah01 · Feb 20, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Or I simply got tired of ad hominem arguements from someone who clearly lacks the experience or understanding to be worth my time.

There are two points of failure with this post.

The first is that it contradicts itself.

The second is that the majority of what you say in this thread is actually "ad hominem".

Anyway as far as lacking understanding of the game, all you have to do is read a few more of my posts.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10250184
This one shows that I pretty much know exactly what I am talking about.

I will let this go now, the evidence that you have failed to offer anything substantial to support yourself is clear in the thread.

Good luck now.

Joe

TheOneMephisto · Feb 20, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Anyway as far as lacking understanding of the game, all you have to do is read a few more of my posts.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10250184
This one shows that I pretty much know exactly what I am talking about.

No offense, but that post isn't really showing anything new. It puts out a thread that talks about issues with GW, but those are also issues that have already been discussed to death and that are pretty much common knowledge to anyone even remotely connected to competitive GvG. I'm not making on comment on your understanding of the game, but I'm saying that that post just basically shows that you do in fact play GW and don't live in a cave. It's not making any particularly new or insightful comments or solutions, and is mainly just regurgitation of common knowledge.

Now to slowly back away and get out from any backlash.

pah01 · Feb 21, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Sometimes I think that Izzy or at least most of arenanet don't get that. I would say that most people in the top 100 get this, but I have met a significant amount of people who don't get it and many of them have been playing since release.

It is almost certain that many of the skill designers don't get it as they produced RAO and The avatars for nightfall along with all the stuff I mention in that post.

Joe